Talk:Zetsu
Dojutsu in Zetsu I was doing some re-reading on the past chapters and i noticed that in chapter 665(page 2), Zetsu was detaching himself from Obito and while coming off, still had the Rinnegan with him. This caused me to think that Zetsu was in possession of the Rinnegan and that he currently is in possession of the sharingan, despite still being attached to Obito. The thing that most supports my belief is that Obito is dead, all while BZetsu remains able to use Kamui.EDIT: In the most recent chapter 676, this would also mean that Obito left sharingan was actually implanted into Zetsu instead, of Obito's dead body.--'Koto'Talk Page- 07:28, May 14, 2014 (UTC) :This is a bit weird. Technically, Zetsu is being "worn" by Obito, who appears to be dead (let's see how long that lasts). Obito isn't conscious, he's been controlled. I'm not sure that Zetsu trying to leave Obito before counts as him having the Rinnegan, as Obito was still in control, even forcing Zetsu to remain attached. With the Sharingan though, things seem murkier. It appears that Zetsu used Obito to Kamui out of the dimension. The closest situation regarding possession and use of kekkei genkai by another I can compare this to is Sasori with the Third Kazekage puppet. Zetsu definitely used Kamui, but he doesn't possess the Rinnegan. In my opinion, BZ's possession is a true body snatching, like say, Orochimaru's. Omnibender - Talk - 18:14, May 14, 2014 (UTC) ::I don't follow your logic Omni about how BZ isn't a Kamui user tho. He isn't a Mokuton user then either, because to do that, he has to be "worn" by a WZ or his clones--Elveonora (talk) 19:25, May 14, 2014 (UTC) :::Right. Zetsu could only use mokuton due to being attached to WZ. But about the Rinnegan, it's nearly impossible to say that he did have the rinnegan as it was connected to his gooey head as he was detaching himself from Obito. As for Kamui, he should be listed as a user of both sharingan and the technique. 1) b/c of mokuton example and 2) I would think because that eye was actually open and in use, while the other wasnt.--'Koto'Talk Page- 21:03, May 14, 2014 (UTC) ::::Did you read my comment right? I'm comparing the situation to Sasori and his use of Magnet Release through a medium that has it. I agree that Zetsu used Kamui, but I'm against listing him as a Sharingan user. He was using Obito to cast it, much like Sasori used the Kazekage puppet to use Iron Sand techniques. If BZ and WZ were to have split articles, I'd be against listing BZ as a Mokuton user, since he's only done so while attached to WZ mass. Omnibender - Talk - 21:56, May 14, 2014 (UTC) :::::Oh, excuse me but im leaving out some important detail in my argument. What i really want to emphasize on is the fact that Zetsu had the rinnegan attached to him as he was leaving Obito's body. It's that the eye was coming off with Zetsu as he was leaving. And, in that one picture, the eye was literally detached from Obito. Its this single piece of evidence that I say that he's a bit more of a user of the Rinnegan and the Sharingan than Sasori is the magnet release. But, it's easy to see where one would counter-argue with "Zetsu is still attached to Obito". But we've seen the difference between Zetsu using the Kamui (literally on his own) vs. Zetsu forcing Obito to use Rinne Rebirth.--'Koto'Talk Page- 22:09, May 14, 2014 (UTC) @Omni, which raises question why isn't Sasori considered a user in the first place. A user is someone who has used something intentionally. BZ's case is not that much different from Orochimaru's soul possession now that Obito is out of the game. In a theoretical situation in which Orochimaru would gain Sasuke's body, he will not have been considered a Sharingan user, 'cause he be using other body according to you. It's as clear as day, Obito is unconscious, BZ used Kamui, means he knows how to do it and has done so.--Elveonora (talk) 22:48, May 14, 2014 (UTC) : Agreed with Eleve, though I do see where you're coming from, Omni. Even so, Sharingan is the medium through which Kamui is used. If Black Zetsu used Kamui (which he did), then he used a Mangekyō Sharingan too. Black Zetsu is a very odd case (jinchūriki; Mangekyō Sharingan; etc), but he is a user regardless. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 01:11, May 15, 2014 (UTC) Elveo, Fox-Boss, I'm glad you two agree.--'Koto'Talk Page- 01:13, May 15, 2014 (UTC) :Huh. I don't quite oppose that sort of change in priciple, but it strikes me as very odd. It also puts some other possible scenarios in a weird situation. For example, if a Yamanaka Mind Body Switches someone. Is Santa a Lightning Release, Lightning Cutter user and MS/Sharingan wielder over having piloted Kakashi through the mist against Zabuza? If Ino takes over a kekkei genkai user and performs a kekkei genkai jutsu, does she get listed as a user. Does her diversion of Obito's Mokuton through the Ten-Tails earlier in the battle means she's a Mokuton user? Omnibender - Talk - 02:26, May 15, 2014 (UTC) ::Well No. That point is null. When Santa used MBS on Kakashi, he had already activated the Raikiri and the point of him switching places with Kakashi was so that he could use his sensory abilities to guide Kakashi through Zabuza's mist, which negated Kakashi's Sharingan. And no again, b/c Ino only manipulated Obito to change the Tentails aim. All-in-all, none of those points have any place here. But i do, however, understand what you meant by your argument. And the point is still left null. It's only b/c Zetsu is almost entirely in a different boat here. He literally has the eye implanted into him. I think you are confusing the fact that Zetsu is attached to Obito, with him being able to use the sharingan despite still being attached to him. He obviously doesnt need to be witnessed by him attempting to leave Obito's body (while taking the Rinnegan with him as 665, page 2 clearly shows) and him being attached to a mass of WZ and using Wood Release (an not connected to a live and sentient part of WZ). --'Koto'Talk Page- 05:32, May 15, 2014 (UTC) I hope necessary changes will be made accordingly asap. For Sasori, are human puppets conscious? If not, then Sasori should be listed as Magnet Release user imo, since the puppets act more or less as extensions of the puppeteer's body--Elveonora (talk) 10:46, May 15, 2014 (UTC) :My reluctance to add Sasori as a Magnet Release user is because listing him as such sort of implies that he possesses Magnet Release. It's almost like saying he's in the same situation as Yamato, except his use of Magnet Release is tool-based. We decided not to consider Tenten and KinGin as users of each of the five natures because they were being achieved through the fan. The situation is pretty much the same here. Are we simply going to revert the decision regarding the fan? Omnibender - Talk - 16:27, May 15, 2014 (UTC) It's not like that hasnt been done before. We have. Alot. Look at Guruguru(and i use his example very loosely) or Raiga and Ameyuri Ringo (lightning release). Each of these characters use a tool or another independent source of which they are accredited the corresponding chakra. By the rule that you are saying that is implied, neither of their pages should reflect the tool's "nature". EDIT: There are other examples in Hoki and Seimei.--'Koto'Talk Page- 17:19, May 15, 2014 (UTC) :Raiga and Ameyuri both had at least one Lightning Release technique that didn't involve the swords Rock Avalanche and Lightning Release: Depth Charge. What about Guruguru? The statue is a technique, not a tool. It's like Obito's use of Wood Release: Cutting Technique through the Ten-Tails. Regarding the Takumi shinobi, I haven't watched that filler in a long time, but wasn't the point of those swords that they minimized the chakra used by their wielders? Omnibender - Talk - 17:29, May 15, 2014 (UTC) ::The hypocrisy... that's not addressed to you Omni, I'm speaking generally... but people pick and choose as they see fit. So Naruto IS to be considered a user of Lava and Magnet (and composing natures) according to you guys, yet Sasori isn't a Magnet Release user by the same merit. Great consistency indeed. We either remove Naruto's borrowed natures completely or we list borrowed natures and techniques for everyone. Decide now--Elveonora (talk) 17:32, May 15, 2014 (UTC) :::You've been told the problem with that reasoning enough times already, mostly by Ten-Tailed Fox, so I'll make no effort repeating him here. Omnibender - Talk - 17:39, May 15, 2014 (UTC) ::::Whatever I was told likely didn't make any sense, although I'd like to hear it once more before I accuse anyone of fallacies again.--Elveonora (talk) 17:48, May 15, 2014 (UTC) :::::Now, lets not get into the Naruto chakra nature incident. Like I said earlier, Black Zetsu's case is different, much like Naruto's, in that he isn't using a tool. He literally is assimilating the abilities of the individual he's occupying.EDIT: After much review, i've reaized that this is much more like Orochimaru's (and his WZ possession) case than any of the others. -- KotoTalk Page- 23:11, May 15, 2014 (UTC) Kinda knew this topic would be left unresolved like 97% of all the others. =/ Seems valid when I say that this joined the statistic and was successfully bumped. Any objections? -- KotoTalk Page- 21:22, May 19, 2014 (UTC) :Yeah. I still don't see how Zetsu using it through Obito is any different from Sasori using Magnet Release through a puppet, Tenten and Kinkaku using Wind Release and Fire Release through Bashōsen, and Raiga and Ameyuri using Lightning Release through Kiba swords. Omnibender - Talk - 21:50, May 19, 2014 (UTC) ::So if I put a gun into your hand and make you shoot with my psychic power, you will be the murderer, not me, because it was your hand holding it? Everything Obito does atm is controlled by BZ. BZ using Kamui with Obito's body isn't any different than Kurama doing stuff through Naruto, so no double standards please--Elveonora (talk) 22:22, May 19, 2014 (UTC) :::Have you understood what I'm arguing for? By all means, list Zetsu as a Kamui user, he's in control, just don't add Sharingan and MS to his infobox, he doesn't have it. Are the other examples I brought up so hard to comprehend? Omnibender - Talk - 22:49, May 19, 2014 (UTC) ::::No, it's not hard to understand at all. I mean i get what youre saying. It's just that he does have a Sharingan. It's implanted on his side. Look at the Chapter page i referred to you guys at the top. It clearly shows that the Black Mass that is BZ has the Rinnegan. It could not have gone that far from Obito's face if it didn't have custody of it already. It's the same case as the Left Sharingan now. I'm not saying list him as a Sharingan user solely due to him using kamui. But because the Sharingan is literally implanted within him. I hope you get what I'm saying now. --'Koto'Talk Page- 23:21, May 19, 2014 (UTC) :::::The Rinnegan I can see your point, even if Obito was strong enough to prevent BZ from leaving, but the Sharingan as far as we know is implanted in Obito, Zetsu is only "driving" Obito. The fact we can see it over BZ just means we can see it being used, since non-phasing Kamui means getting stuff in and out through the eye. Omnibender - Talk - 23:31, May 19, 2014 (UTC) ::::::: I take it that you agree that he had temporarily had the rinnegan and should and listed? Your comment kind of confused me about the Left Eye Sharingan. I cant tell if you agree about that or not. But I am overall glad youre seeing my point. If you read between the lines, you'll see that the fact that the left eye is open clearly means that it's literally Zetsu's now. -- KotoTalk Page- 23:40, May 19, 2014 (UTC) @Omni, "list Zetsu as a Kamui user, he's in control, just don't add sharingan and MS to his infobox, he doesn't have it" great, so we will do and as such so should we remove the natures from Naruto's infobox then, because despite him being in control while having used the 'gans, the natures weren't his ;) just like Obito's eye ain't BZ's--Elveonora (talk) 11:17, May 20, 2014 (UTC) :@Elveonora The Tailed Beasts, their chakra is inside him, it's his to use. When Zetsu seals Obito inside himself, then your point will hold. @Koto Senju, yes, Rinnegan I agree. Omnibender - Talk - 17:24, May 20, 2014 (UTC) ::Yea Elveo. The tailed beast are on a whole different spectrum of what we're addressing here. Not very relevant. @Omni, why don't agree on him having Sharingan, but agree to add him as a user of Kamui. Doesnt make sense to have it w/o the Sharingan listed. My whole reasoning for bringing up the Rinnegan is to point out that yes, he was temporarily a user of the Rinne, but also that it's the same for Obito's left eye. Just like the Rinnegan, Obito's left Sharingan is also Zetsu's. This is not just b/c he's occupying Obito's body, but because the eye is literally in the the black goop that is Black Zetsu. -- KotoTalk Page- 17:50, May 20, 2014 (UTC) :::@Omni, again this weird non-existent and irrelevant positional requirement "logic" which I don't get at all, but I'm gonna leave it be...--Elveonora (talk) 17:55, May 20, 2014 (UTC) ::::TheUltimate3 has arrived. Zetsu used Kamui and Kakashi's Mangekyo Sharingan while through Obito, he gets listed. Hurray.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'TheUltimate3']] (talk) 12:41, May 21, 2014 (UTC) :::::*Fan boy reaction* You're my hero! Edit: how would one go about the wording. "BZ tole blah blah blah and used blah?" -- KotoTalk Page- 12:47, May 21, 2014 (UTC) @Ulti, I love you, this time :P--Elveonora (talk) 12:47, May 21, 2014 (UTC) Grass Headband If you look at it closely it couldn't have been a mistake and in many different manga images it is clear that he has a headband on his chest. not to mention he was in kusagakure with madara and made their. it is also possible to see the rogue cut through the village symbol on his headband. it should at least be added as trivia. if you want to see the headband then look on page 196 of the third data book. look at zetsu's chest. its right there. you can also see part of it when he comes out of the ground to chat with hidan after his ritual. from all of this i think its not possible for you guys to label it as bull shit anymore. Munchvtec (talk) 13:43, May 19, 2014 (UTC) :I can't see a headband at all. Norleon (talk) 15:59, May 19, 2014 (UTC) ::Talk:Zetsu/Archive_1#Kusagakure?, Talk:Zetsu/Archive_2#hugh!, Talk:Zetsu/Archive_2#homeplace and Talk:Zetsu/Archive_2#Contradiction. Find your answer there. —[[User:Shakhmoot|'Shakhmoot']] (Talk) 16:08, May 19, 2014 (UTC) I can see that as a headband but this was before the whole Zetsu is a plant clone of Hashirama thing. Kishi probably didn't think of that till Madara became more prominent in the story. Even so you can't tell what is on the supposed headband, for all we know it's blank. My sources are the volumes and databook I own. --Narutofox94 (talk) 17:42, May 19, 2014 (UTC) It should be added in trivia at least. Munchvtec (talk) 15:20, May 20, 2014 (UTC) :It's speculation, so no. Norleon (talk) 16:49, May 20, 2014 (UTC) Not if it was seen which it was.Munchvtec (talk) 01:42, May 21, 2014 (UTC) :Apparently, fans debate if it really was a headband or not, since 2010. I can't see any headband at all, neither in the databook nor when he emerges during Hidan's ritual. If others can see it, they are free to provide the proof, like highlighting the headband via paint or whatnot...Norleon (talk) 10:32, May 21, 2014 (UTC) In the third data book on his profile page. look at his full body image. now look for a small opening in the venus fly trap-like things and you will see it. i believe in an older talk page discussion on zetsus page a user even had a pic of it in close up if you want to check that out. Munchvtec (talk) 15:31, May 21, 2014 (UTC) Its in archive two in the discussion called hugh! a user provides a high quality link image to it. Munchvtec (talk) 15:36, May 21, 2014 (UTC) :Yes, I observed these images as well. Still, I don't see a headband. I honestly can't even imagine how people tell themselves they see one there. :A few facts why I believe this whole discussion is redundant: *'1.' If Kishimoto would have gone through the "trouble" to draw him an own headband, why would he suddenly stop doing so? Never again did we see something there, right? *'2.' Considering Zetsu's whole background story, it would not make any sense for him to come from Kusagakure as he never had anything in common with that village. We don't list Madara as a Kusagakure shinobi either, just because he spend decades of his life there, staring at Hashirama's clone, do we? *'3.' Since you bring up the databook so often...if Kishimoto wanted to make Zetsu a Kusagakure shinobi, he would definitively list him as such in his databooks. With one-hundred percent certainty. But he never did so. I am looking at Zetsu's article in the Sha no Sho right now. The image you are using as proof is right there, yet his little box on top of the page that tells about the village of origin is empty. :If that isn't enough to convince you, I won't be able to help you any further here. Norleon (talk) 16:21, May 21, 2014 (UTC) Split So, can we separate White and Black Zetsus' page now, at last? Chapter 678 further proved they have nothing to do with each other, neither regarding creation, nor the way they "function". Black Zetsu is a parasitic symbiont that can exist on any body, control it and use its powers. He did so with original White Zetsu, but also on several other occasions. There weren't really any firm arguments for them staying together for a long time except for some people stubbornness. All we need to do is to gather more opinions of more people with common sense.Faust-RSI (talk) 05:23, May 28, 2014 (UTC) : Honestly, they should've been split long ago. Yes, I am entirely in support of splitting them. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 05:27, May 28, 2014 (UTC) :I agree, the two halves are way too different in nearly every regard to be on the same page. [[User:Kamikaze839|'Kamikaze839']] 05:40, May 28, 2014 (UTC) :: 678 definitely supports this. Good luck to anyone trying to argue this. --'Koto'Talk Page- 05:43, May 28, 2014 (UTC) :::Go ahead for me. Seems this chapter confirmed that the Black Zetsu has different personality and abilities from the White Zetsu. —[[User:Shakhmoot|'Shakhmoot']] (Talk) 05:47, May 28, 2014 (UTC) Please give me the ok to go ahead and start this. -- KotoTalk Page- 05:50, May 28, 2014 (UTC) Please add that Black Zetsu is the will of Kaguya NOT Madara, as recently revealed in this chapter 05:54, May 28, 2014 (UTC) Kamui : No. You know the process around here. There are others that have to weigh in. Wait. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 06:12, May 28, 2014 (UTC) I agree, about time it should be split --Kasan94 (talk) 06:47, May 28, 2014 (UTC) I went ahead and split it. I put tabs of both new articles into this page so that links to Zetsu will still mostly work. If the tabs end up having bad side effects, then some other solution will need to be thought up. ~SnapperT '' 07:25, May 28, 2014 (UTC) :Works for me. Though we should change main picture of WZ to something from the times of Obito's rehabilitation. Also, Guruguru and Hashirama should be removed from BZ infobox (somehow I can't edit it myself?!), and maybe Kaguya should be added.Faust-RSI (talk) 07:38, May 28, 2014 (UTC) :: Wouldn't a simple disambiguation page be enough? Could add Guruguru and the White Zetsu Army (as links) to that disambiguation, since they have all been referred to as "Zetsu". ~ ''Ten Tailed Fox 07:45, May 28, 2014 (UTC) :::I was going to do that, but this a) seems less frustrating from a reader's perspective, and b) spares people's obsessive need to update redirects. I've put a up top for the other Zetsus. ~SnapperT '' 07:52, May 28, 2014 (UTC) ::::Well I'm less than pleased to wake up and see this. Is there a way to preserve the old image of Zetsu at least? Most of the pictures I've seem of them together is far enough you don't get a good shot of black/white face.-[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3]] (talk) 08:16, May 28, 2014 (UTC) :::::There is still a chance we'll find a picture with a closer face of WZ. Regarding BZ - he has no face at all, he is just a black mass that takes form only covering someone else's body. I think his picture should be changed to that once the anime catch up to the chapter his real look was demonstrated in.Faust-RSI (talk) 08:21, May 28, 2014 (UTC) I was talking about an image of them in one body. The headshot in the original infobox.-[[User:TheUltimate3|'TheUltimate3']] (talk) 08:45, May 28, 2014 (UTC) :I think it's a technical issue. Original Zetsu page doesn't have any content of its own, it only shows separate WZ and BZ pages, thus their infoboxes. I'm not sure if we can add independent infobox here, nor that I think it's really needed.Faust-RSI (talk) 08:50, May 28, 2014 (UTC) With all due respect, I think it took way too long to finally split this page. And why do we really need that tabbed info there? Why not just make this a disambiguation page, with Guruguru and White Zetsu Army as part of the list? Yatanogarasu (Talk) 01:21, May 29, 2014 (UTC) Not a Mangekyo user Just because he can use it while controlling Obito doesn't make it his. Sasori isn't a Magnet Release user, for example. --Mandon (talk) 05:37, May 28, 2014 (UTC) :Nope not going through this again. Read the sections above. Debate settled.--'Koto'Talk Page- 05:39, May 28, 2014 (UTC) :: ^ This. He is in control of Obito's body, and initiated Kamui. He is a user same as Naruto is a Tailed Beast Ball user when in control of Kurama's power. This discussion has already been had and is solved.~ 'Ten Tailed Fox 05:40, May 28, 2014 (UTC) You're current argument basically states that we should have Sasori listed as a user of Magnet release Officialkamuiblade (talk) Kamui : No. Not happening again. This argument was done and resolved. Its not the same so leave it. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 06:15, May 28, 2014 (UTC) :: I absolutely L-O-V-E how people act like their opinions about rehashed arguments matter more if they keep beating on the dead horse. Seriously? Your opinions matter of course, but unless you do as advised and read the topic like two sections above, then your words have little credibility.--'Koto'Talk Page- 06:35, May 28, 2014 (UTC) :::Well, in my honest opinion Sasori should be listed as Magnet user, too--Elveonora (talk) 10:44, May 28, 2014 (UTC) Tabs or no tabs Rather than continue this through edit summaries, please discuss it here. To repeat my earlier points: #Tabs are less frustrating from a reader's perspective, as they will not end up clicking a link that takes them to a page that just gives them another link to click. #Spares people's obsessive need to update redirects, because how do you refer to Zetsu before chapter 45X? Zetsu all over the place? TTF says using tabs just repeats information, but what's wrong with that? It's not as though information is being copy and pasted from the individual articles to this one. Anyway, please discuss. ~SnapperT '' 20:29, May 28, 2014 (UTC) : I say it defeats the purpose of the split. "Zetsu", as a term, refers not only to White and Black Zetsu (which the tabber system makes central), but to all artificial humans created by Madara from Hashirama's DNA. It was originally used to describe the merged form of White and Black Zetsu (reflected in my edit), but now applies to them all. It doesn't make any logical sense to me to have three articles with the exact same content, when the purpose of the split was to illustrate how radically different the two of them are in both personality, abilities, and purpose. With the tabber system, all that has been done is splitting the two halves into different articles and then remerging them on one page. : With a disambiguation page, like I did, you mention the fact that White and Black Zetsu were the origin of the term, but it now applies to all artificial humans, and then you can link to all occurrences of the term "Zetsu". Just makes more sense to me. ~ ''Ten Tailed Fox 20:37, May 28, 2014 (UTC) ::The marginalization of the other Zetsus is expected, inevitable, and consistent with other pages. When some name is shared between multiple pages, one of those pages needs to take preference. In this case that preference is given to the first Zetsus seen in the series and the ones that have made the most contributions. ::The purpose of the split, to my understanding, was to make it easier to distinguish one Zetsu from another. Tabs do not diminish this. If the split is to make each half wholly unique, that isn't going to happen considering how long they're together; seriously, 1/3 to 1/2 of both articles are verbatim copies of each other. ::And I really think the two points I made are far more important. Wanting to do "justice" to the topic(s) is a fine thing, but if that makes it more difficult for the people who actually use the site, readers and users alike, then to hell with justice. ~SnapperT '' 21:08, May 28, 2014 (UTC) ::: I fail to see how having to click a link to Black and White Zetsu (which by the way, are established as different characters) makes it harder on them. In fact, does it not make it easier on our readers to have all references to all Zetsu in one place? ~ ''Ten Tailed Fox 21:41, May 28, 2014 (UTC) ::::I can make the same arguments. How does having to click a link to Guruguru and White Zetsu Army make it harder? Does it not make it easier to have both articles tabbed in one place? ::::Guruguru and White Zetsu Army have always been separate Zetsu since the moment of their introduction. Black and White were the only Zetsu and, from a reader's perspective, the same Zetsu for a very long time. 9/10 searches for "Zetsu" are going to intend Black, White, or both, and therefore they should be the focus of Zetsu. ::::Would it be an improvement for you if the see also at the top were more detailed? ~SnapperT '' 23:07, May 28, 2014 (UTC) ::::: Perhaps, yes. That would be a fair enough concession. I admit, your points are fair. Just seems a bit redundant to me to have split them, and then still have them united on this page. So yes, if there is a bit more detailed of a See also section, that'd be fair enough for me. ~ ''Ten Tailed Fox 23:16, May 28, 2014 (UTC)